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High Risk or Not High Risk - That is the question
#1
Hi Folks, what are your thoughts.....

A new build building has a number of risers running through it, all have 30 minute fire doors with cold smoke seals and intumescent strips.

All are larger than "Approximately 1 Square Meter"

Category of system is L2

Riser 01 Mechanical Riser - opens onto Main Stairs and is open top to bottom, contains ductwork only!

Riser 02 Mechanical Riser - opens onto Main Stairs and is compartmented at each level, contains ductwork, no room for storage,

Riser 03 Mechanical Riser - opens onto office floor and is open top to bottom, contains ductwork only!

Riser 04 Mechanical Riser - opens onto office floor and is compartmented at each level, contains ductwork, no room for storage.

Riser 05 Electrical Riser - opens onto Main Stairs and is open (Floor Grill) top to bottom, contains distribution boards and CCTV/Access type Power Supplies only!

Riser 06 Electrical Riser - opens onto Main Stairs and is compartmented at each level, contains distribution boards and CCTV/Access type Power Supplies only!

Riser 07 Electrical Riser - opens onto office floor and is open top to bottom, contains distribution boards and CCTV/Access type Power Supplies only!

Riser 08 Electrical Riser - opens onto office floor and is compartmented at each level, contains distribution boards and CCTV/Access type Power Supplies only!

Question A? - Which Risers do we put a detector at the top and within 1.5 of each opening

Question B? - Which Risers can we disregard and leave without specific detection.

Question C? Which Risers/Space do we need to install detection within.

Site is not built, so no opportunity to discuss with a Risk Assessor.

Quote stage - but you want to win the job AND do it right!

Discuss, (while I get a coffee and await your opinions)

Bill
"it is lit up like a Xmas tree and I cant shut it up, has not worked since you installed it in 2015, is it still under warranty?"
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#2
Is there going to be fire stopping between the floors ?

If so and under 1m2 then you now can treat as a cupboard - for the ones with just ducting and no electrical cables etc
All posts are of my own opinion and knowledge and do not reflect the views of the Company I work for.
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#3
My subjective view...

All open risers onto stairs & offices - AFD outside riser doors (should be simple enough if on stairs) plus one at top.

Compartmented duct riser onto stairs - although should be treated as a room, could potentially be AV’d out as low risk. All depends on integrity of ducting, what it carries and where from/to, presence of dampers, integrity of fire stopping etc. 

Compartmented Elec risers - Treat as a room, so AFD in each space. When not off escape route  identify as room of additional risk under L2.
www.ajfire.co.uk

"Independent BAFE Accredited Fire Protection Specialists"

- SP203-1; FDA Maintenance; 
- SP205-1; Life Safety Fire Risk Assessment
- Members of the Fire Industry Association (FIA)
- SafeContractor Approved


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#4
(20-05-2019, 02:44 PM)Bill-J Wrote: Hi Folks, what are your thoughts.....

A new build building has a number of risers running through it, all have 30 minute fire doors with cold smoke seals and intumescent strips.

All are larger than "Approximately 1 Square Meter"

Category of system is L2

Riser 01 Mechanical Riser - opens onto Main Stairs and is open top to bottom, contains ductwork only! one at top and 1.5m outside at each level

Riser 02 Mechanical Riser - opens onto Main Stairs and is compartmented at each level, contains ductwork, no room for storage, none

Riser 03 Mechanical Riser - opens onto office floor and is open top to bottom, contains ductwork only! one at top and 1.5m outside at each level if room is a high risk L2 room otherwise only at top

Riser 04 Mechanical Riser - opens onto office floor and is compartmented at each level, contains ductwork, no room for storage. none

Riser 05 Electrical Riser - opens onto Main Stairs and is open (Floor Grill) top to bottom, contains distribution boards and CCTV/Access type Power Supplies only! one at top and 1.5m outside at each level

Riser 06 Electrical Riser - opens onto Main Stairs and is compartmented at each level, contains distribution boards and CCTV/Access type Power Supplies only! none unless you class distribution boards as risk which i don't 

Riser 07 Electrical Riser - opens onto office floor and is open top to bottom, contains distribution boards and CCTV/Access type Power Supplies only! one at top and 1.5m outside at each level if room is a high risk L2 room otherwise only at top

Riser 08 Electrical Riser - opens onto office floor and is compartmented at each level, contains distribution boards and CCTV/Access type Power Supplies only! none unless you class distribution boards as risk which i don't 

Question A? - Which Risers do we put a detector at the top and within 1.5 of each opening

Question B? - Which Risers can we disregard and leave without specific detection.

Question C? Which Risers/Space do we need to install detection within.

Site is not built, so no opportunity to discuss with a Risk Assessor.

Quote stage - but you want to win the job AND do it right!

Discuss, (while I get a coffee and await your opinions)

Bill
www.fia.uk.com

Technical Manager FIA

All comments and views are mine own and may not reflect the views of FIA
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#5
(21-05-2019, 08:19 AM)Will Lloyd Wrote:
(20-05-2019, 02:44 PM)Bill-J Wrote: Hi Folks, what are your thoughts.....

A new build building has a number of risers running through it, all have 30 minute fire doors with cold smoke seals and intumescent strips.

All are larger than "Approximately 1 Square Meter"

Category of system is L2

Riser 01 Mechanical Riser - opens onto Main Stairs and is open top to bottom, contains ductwork only! one at top and 1.5m outside at each level

Riser 02 Mechanical Riser - opens onto Main Stairs and is compartmented at each level, contains ductwork, no room for storage, none

Riser 03 Mechanical Riser - opens onto office floor and is open top to bottom, contains ductwork only! one at top and 1.5m outside at each level if room is a high risk L2 room otherwise only at top

Riser 04 Mechanical Riser - opens onto office floor and is compartmented at each level, contains ductwork, no room for storage. none

Riser 05 Electrical Riser - opens onto Main Stairs and is open (Floor Grill) top to bottom, contains distribution boards and CCTV/Access type Power Supplies only! one at top and 1.5m outside at each level

Riser 06 Electrical Riser - opens onto Main Stairs and is compartmented at each level, contains distribution boards and CCTV/Access type Power Supplies only! none unless you class distribution boards as risk which i don't 

Riser 07 Electrical Riser - opens onto office floor and is open top to bottom, contains distribution boards and CCTV/Access type Power Supplies only! one at top and 1.5m outside at each level if room is a high risk L2 room otherwise only at top

Riser 08 Electrical Riser - opens onto office floor and is compartmented at each level, contains distribution boards and CCTV/Access type Power Supplies only! none unless you class distribution boards as risk which i don't 

Question A? - Which Risers do we put a detector at the top and within 1.5 of each opening

Question B? - Which Risers can we disregard and leave without specific detection.

Question C? Which Risers/Space do we need to install detection within.

Site is not built, so no opportunity to discuss with a Risk Assessor.

Quote stage - but you want to win the job AND do it right!

Discuss, (while I get a coffee and await your opinions)

Bill
none unless you class distribution boards as risk which i don't 

I always classed d.b. as risks. Would you class a mains incoming room as a risk? H.V. substation as a risk? not trying to be overly pedantic but I thought distribution boards would be a risk?

Of course I'm not one of those risk assessors who know everything... (gas shutdown required for kitchen but no shutdown needed for whole building main plant room heating oil as an example...)
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#6
(21-05-2019, 10:04 AM)alonso Wrote: none unless you class distribution boards as risk which i don't 

I always classed d.b. as risks. Would you class a mains incoming room as a risk? H.V. substation as a risk? not trying to be overly pedantic but I thought distribution boards would be a risk?

Of course I'm not one of those risk assessors who know everything... (gas shutdown required for kitchen but no shutdown needed for whole building main plant room heating oil as an example...)

as this is a new build i don't class normal DB as high risk AFDD's and all that
its subjective i will agree and I don't think your wrong if you do
and just for those who know me well enough
whats the objective?
www.fia.uk.com

Technical Manager FIA

All comments and views are mine own and may not reflect the views of FIA
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#7
And this is my point, thanks for your time Gents, the debate could last forever, I agree with Will that a new DB in a fire compartment in an "L" category space remote from a corridor is not a "High Risk", but it is subjective - 5839 defines "low risk" but does not provide any other risk definition.

So we here, who all (I believe) wish to get it right, could be penalising ourselves, losing work to less scrupulous folks, who are actually, also getting it right.

Now, those risers, are they all separate zones? Even the ones in stair cores with just 1 detector?

Bill
"it is lit up like a Xmas tree and I cant shut it up, has not worked since you installed it in 2015, is it still under warranty?"
Reply
#8
(21-05-2019, 01:53 PM)Bill-J Wrote: And this is my point, thanks for your time Gents, the debate could last forever, I agree with Will that a new DB in a fire compartment in an "L" category space remote from a corridor is not a "High Risk", but it is subjective - 5839 defines "low risk" but does not provide any other risk definition.

So we here, who all (I believe) wish to get it right, could be penalising ourselves, losing work to less scrupulous folks, who are actually, also getting it right.

Now, those risers, are they all separate zones? Even the ones in stair cores with just 1 detector?

Bill

I think the elec risers could be classed as low risk if just hosting db’s, but once you start putting third party kit/PSU’s etc, you can’t guarantee that the quality is going to be good enough to remain low risk, especially when the cost saving mentality starts to creep in, but again this isn’t just my view. At the end of the day, if it’s a grey area, you can recommend it as long as you justify it. If the powers that be decide to omit, then that’s that. 

Zone wise, if the compartments in the risers are fully & properly closed, it’s no longer a riser, it’s a room, so add it onto the floor zone. Open riser = vertical zone.
www.ajfire.co.uk

"Independent BAFE Accredited Fire Protection Specialists"

- SP203-1; FDA Maintenance; 
- SP205-1; Life Safety Fire Risk Assessment
- Members of the Fire Industry Association (FIA)
- SafeContractor Approved


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#9
Are you guys forgetting that electrical qualifications are given away on the back of corn flake packets now? Anywhere that has any amount of cabling or db's is surely becoming a greater risk every year!
Martin Wison
KGM Fire and Security Distribution Ltd.
Rochester, Kent.
01634 716882
http://www.kgmfireandsecurity.co.uk
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#10
The ones I have seen recently were a worry
All posts are of my own opinion and knowledge and do not reflect the views of the Company I work for.
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