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Variations
#1
I have a large site which has been installed by a well known company. The installation has a few problems as the containment was completed by another contractor which has now gone out of business which again is far from ideal and problems have occurred. 
The result is a large number of devices are either too close to a wall (some are touching the walls) or a obstruction. 
This is a multi panel site and the Verification certificate given refers to the whole site not the individual buildings
I know its a really bad install but right now im just trying to get some paperwork together.

We are in a bun fight at the moment so what should i expect on a Verification certificate.
1. List all the devices including locations and which part of the standard BS5839 which is not met
2. Mention some devices do not meet BS5839 but not list them
3. Just list the BS which is not complied with but not which devices

Regards
Jasp
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#2
The verification process is to make sure there are no other variations etc that have been missed at Commissioning.

You are verifying that the commissioning has been done right and all variations recorded and no obvious causes of false alarms.

So when checking the design , install and commission certificates and none of the above are listed then you need to list them all.
All posts are of my own opinion and knowledge and do not reflect the views of the Company I work for.
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#3
(12-02-2020, 09:48 AM)Graeme Wrote: The verification process is to make sure there are no other variations etc that have been missed at Commissioning.

You are verifying that the commissioning has been done right and all variations recorded and no obvious causes of false alarms.

So when checking the design , install and commission certificates and none of the above are listed then you need to list them all.

Hi Graeme, thank you for the reply.
We asked for the variation certificates as they were not issued, and we got a Verification certificate for the entire site with 4 lines on what may not conform to BS.
I have completed many maintenances of the site without any paperwork so i have checked all the devices (over 12000 devices, took a long time)  and write the devices that fail to meet the BS on my paperwork, so assumed that the commissioning has to do the same.

regards
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#4
I misread this - it seems you have taken on the site for maintenance?

Regardless of what is or isn't in place - you need to do an in depth inspection and list everything you find unfortunately.
All posts are of my own opinion and knowledge and do not reflect the views of the Company I work for.
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#5
(12-02-2020, 03:07 PM)Graeme Wrote: I misread this - it seems you have taken on the site for maintenance?

Regardless of what is or isn't in place - you need to do an in depth inspection and list everything you find unfortunately.
Sort of, the site was built for us and the original installer has contractual obligations. 
I just wanted to know what the original commissioning variation certificate is required to show,  ie list all of the variations to the BS or just a short sentence to say some of it does not apply.

I have spent an awful long time finding what is not to the BS which i have documented but its the original commissioning paperwork which im chasing up.
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#6
The Design certificate should note any variations required at design stage .

Installation should note all variations at installation stage - example cannot install detector where it is shown on design drawings due to a light fitting etc.

Commission should list all variations not listed in the design and installation certificates

Verification should list all variations found that are not on the all the previous.

It is not acceptable just to say some variations exist - they all should have been documented.
All posts are of my own opinion and knowledge and do not reflect the views of the Company I work for.
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#7
The thing with listed variations is that they should be “agreed variations” I.e justified deviations to the design standard. The list of variations (or justified non-conformances) should be noted on the comm cert as accepted issues. 

The thing with a Verification certificate is that the scope of the verification process needs to be clearly defined. If the scope was to verify the whole site to ensure the system met BS5839–1:2002 L3, you would need to check literally every aspect of the system against that version of the standard and highlight any non-conformances. It would then be down to discussion whether these non-conformances can be listed as justified and subsequently accepted (generally in association with a risk assessor. The scope can include specific parts of the building or even specific aspects of the system (provision of manual call points only for example), but the scope needs to be clearly defined. 

This is similar to a takeover inspection as the system should be inspected and non-conformances listed, but again, just because it’s a non-com, doesn’t mean it wasn’t an “agreed variation” in the first place. 

If you don’t have any original documents, all you can really do is list all the non-com’s, pass the information upwards and let the policy makers and interested parties decide what they want to do about it.
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#8
Thank you for your reply's, its been very helpful.
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#9
Mirroring what the others have said, if the information that you need is not available then the only option is to carry out a full review and issue a report to your client listing all the elements that do not comply, the decision is up to them. I would also remind them of the non compliance on every visit, this way you are covering yourself and ensuring that the customer is being informed on every service visit
Notifier ESD, Siemens Technology Partner, Autronica Specialist
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